Are these large bubbles normal ?


Hi guys,
My dough sometime seem to be very bubbly , there are large bubbles come out on the edge and center of the crust, is it too bubbly ? Is it normal ? If it is abnormal , what was wrong ? under fermented or over fermented ?

The recipe is ‘master dough without starter’. I uesd 0.4% of instant dry yeast instead of 1.0% active dry yeast cause it is hard to found ADY in my country. And the temperature of my fridge is not stable, it changes from 36 to 50 degree anytime , so i cutted down the amount of yeast to 0.4% .

This dough is fermented in the fridge for 48 hours,it is 64 degree before stretching. I only uesd tomato sauce and simple ingredients on it ,baking with 570 degree.There are some giant bubbles on it . Is it fermented properly ?

The book said that the dough have to rest in room temperature for one hour after kneading , what is the purpose ?One hour is base on what temperature ? Cause Room temperature in summer and winter is much different .

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Ted Sin
posted almost 2 years ago

Save 0

still no reply ,so disappointed

Ted Sin
posted almost 2 years ago


Hi Ted, you might want to edit the title of your post so that it's more descriptive and grammatically correct. This can cause people to skip over posts.

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Raj Irukulla admin
posted almost 2 years ago

Thanks Raj , I will try.

- Ted   over 1 year ago


Welcome, Ted. Where are you from? Your dough looks great! I have a couple of questions. Why did you change the amount of yeast? I read--at the yeast company site, I think--that ADY and instant should be substituted in the exact amount as the recipe requires. I don't think that's the reason for the bubbling. Bubbles are caused by moisture and heat and the expelling of 02 by the yeast as it digests. (Sometimes a thin spot in the body of the pie will also cause bubbling.) My guess is that your bubbling is due to the high temp you are using in your oven. If you feel you're getting good results at that temp, but the bubbling bothers you, just pop the bubbles when you see them forming in the oven. I think there's even a tool for it for professionals--a long metal stick--no problem, just pop them. Also, you can pop any bubbles you seem forming on the cornicione as you stretch the dough before you put it in the oven. Tony points that out in his video--just pinch them.

What brands are you using--flour and yeast? Room temperature is relative, but it generally means around 68-70F.

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Maria .
posted almost 2 years ago

Hi Maria,
As I advised to you before, I work for a pizza stone manufacturer which provide OEM products for many customers all over the world. We set up our own brand recently and have a small business in US online selling, we can provides our stone to you for free trial.Please contact me via t970919@163.com if you are interested in our products.Thank you!

- Ted   over 1 year ago

i use only one stone.One of my clients learnt from Tony years ago,so i know Tony.Luckily, PB is available in Amazon China.

- Ted   over 1 year ago

Hi Maria,thank you for your reply.

I am from China.I got interested in making pizza two years ago after i started working at a pizza stone manufacture.

But you know, it is difficult to buy good pizza ingredients and there is no professional pizza school here.

Someone told me that the large bubbles were caused by incorrect fermentation and he suggested me to cut down the amount of yeast and make it ferment for shorter.

As you said , it's not the reason.There are still large bubbles in the dough.Then i used another kind of flour which named Gold medal(produced by General Mills ).This is the only one i can get on the flour list of Pizza BIBLE.After that, thing seem to be much better.

- Ted   over 1 year ago

Hi Ted: Where in China are you located? I'm glad your pizza is better. Gold Medal is a good flour. Also waiting until the dough is room temperature helps (20 to 22 °C (68 to 72 °F). Send us pics. Which pizza stone are you using?

- Maria   over 1 year ago

HI,Maria,I am in Guangdong China.Our pizza stone is made of cordierite.Our factory OEM for many customers from all over the world, including supermarkets or sellers on Amazon.

- Ted   over 1 year ago

warm & humid climate ... are you using two stones in a home oven? how did you hear about pizza bible?

- Maria   over 1 year ago


In my experience, large bubbles form due to over fermentation, for a 48 hour ferment with that temp of the fridge, I would try and cut that yeast percentage down by half. should get a better result

Jeff S.
posted almost 2 years ago

Hi Jeff, thank you for your reply.I also kept an eye on the temperature of the fridge.Finnally i found the reason was the flour which contain a lot of additive agents.The additive agents make the gluten much stonger and let the dough rises much higher.This situation changed after I used another flour.

- Ted   over 1 year ago


Ted,

The correct conversion from ADY to IDY is 25% less, meaning if you use IDY use 25% less than you would using ADY.

Regarding your bubbles,...your dough ferments at a much faster rate than it should and my guess is it's because of your unstable refrigerator temperatures and therefore the yeast is more active than it should be.

It has very little to do with the moisture content causing the bubbling during fermentation, although a dough higher in hydration tends to ferment a tad faster than a dough that contains less water.

Cut down on the IDY amount, perhaps down to 0.2% and place your dough on the lowest shelf in your fridge, all the way to the back and see what happens with your next batch.

The "1-hr" at room temp is to bring the dough up to a manageable temperature so that it is easier to open without spring-back or tearing. It also is more of a suggestion rather than a rule since every environment is different as you already pointed out, so keep checking the temperature of your dough balls intermittently.

But here's a rule: Never put a cold dough in the oven.

Hope that helps.

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Mike K.
posted almost 2 years ago

Thanks, Mike.I changed for another flour, and i got satisfied result.But the dough seem to be over fermented and a little bit too soft and weak after 48 hours fermentation. I will try the 0.2%, and i think this will help.

- Ted   over 1 year ago


1. Instant dry yeast should be subbed for
Active Dry Yeast at a 1:1 ratio per King Arthur: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/learn/yeast.html
2. Your dough looks great. The bubbling does not look excessive in the pics of the raw dough. PB recommends warming to 65F after taking it from fridge. Do you temp? It looks like there's an air bubble on the cornicione on the bottom right of the last pic. Normally, folks would break that before putting in the oven.
3. Yeast excretes C02 that causes bubbling--perfectly normal & desirable.
Higher hydration levels cause more and larger bubbles, but MD is 65% and not excessive. Ideally the cornicione should be one big uniform air pocket.

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Maria .
posted almost 2 years ago


We're not talking 2-3 hour rises here as the KA site suggests. IDY acts faster hence it should be reduced by 25%

Still don't believe me, Maria? Then I suggest you do the math using the numbers in this conversation chart:

http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

Yes, yeast produces CO2 but if it produces it too fast and too much of it, it's not a desirable effect which apparently is Ted's problem during fermentation.

And, with all due respect, 65% is in the realm of a higher hydration.

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Mike K.
posted almost 2 years ago


The yeast amount in MD formula has been fixed at 1% specifically for long fermentation. KA site is a reliable info. source. I use instant yeast regularly--no problem with bubbling--no adjustment. Also, the post states the guy has already cut yeast back to .4% instead of the recommended 1%.

65% hydration is not excessive. (yeast amounts for similar flour/water ratios for similar dough yield for short rises is much higher.)

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Maria .
posted almost 2 years ago


Maria,

Can you point me to any part in my answers above where I said 65% is excessive?

And where in Tony's book does it say the 1% yeast value is a fixed value specifically for long fermentations? You obviously haven't read Page 19.

Furthermore, I suggest you look into books written by baking greats such as Prof. Raymond Calvel, Didier Rosada, Michel Suas and Chad Robertson to bring you up to speed on fermentations, hydrations, chemical reactions within a dough...among other interesting things.

And since you like to reference KA's advice, here's is what their page about yeast suggests, which is basically the gist of my original answer to Ted:

"Can I vary the amount of yeast in a recipe to quicken or slow down how my dough rises?

The amount of yeast you use in your bread dough has a significant bearing on how quickly it'll rise, and thus on your own schedule. By reducing the yeast, you ensure a long, slow rise, one more likely to produce a strong dough able to withstand the rigors of baking.

The more yeast in a recipe initially, the quicker it produces CO2, alcohol, and organic acids. Alcohol, being acidic, weakens the gluten in the dough, and eventually the dough becomes “porous,” and won't rise; or won't rise very well.

By starting with a smaller amount of yeast, you slow down the amount of CO2, alcohol, and organic acids being released into the dough, thus ensuring the gluten remains strong and the bread rises well—from its initial rise in the bowl, to its final rise in the oven.

Remember that this slow rise extends to the shaped loaf, as well as dough in the bowl. Once you've shaped your loaf, covered it, and set it aside to rise again, it may take 2 hours or more, rather than the usual 1 to 1 1/2, to rise fully and be ready for the oven.

Keep in mind, also, the characteristics of your own kitchen. If you bake bread all the time, your kitchen is full of wild yeast, and any dough you make there will rise vigorously. If you seldom bake bread, or are just beginning, your kitchen will be quite “sterile;” your dough won't be aided by wild yeast, and will rise more slowly than it would in a more “active” kitchen.

Here are some guidelines to get you started. If you're an occasional bread baker, cut back the usual 2 to 2 1/2; teaspoons of instant yeast to 1/2 to 1 teaspoon, depending on how long you want to let the dough ferment before the final shape-rise-bake process. 1/2 teaspoon would give you lots of flexibility, such as letting the dough “rest” for 16 to 20 hours; 1 teaspoon would be a good amount for an all-day or overnight rise (10 hours or so, at cool room temperature).

If you're using active dry yeast, which isn't as vigorous as instant yeast, we'd up the range to 3/4 to 1 1/2 teaspoons.

We've found that here in our King Arthur kitchen, where we bake bread every day, we can cut the yeast all the way back to 1/16 to 1/8 teaspoon in a 3-cup-of-flour recipe, and get a good overnight or all-day rise.

Use your judgment in rating your own kitchen as to “yeast friendliness.”

Just my 0.02 cents...

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Mike K.
posted almost 2 years ago


Mike: Your post is difficult to read because there is no offset where there is quoted material. That 65% hydration is not excessive is my own opinion.

Regarding the 1:1 ratio for substituting instant dry yeast for active dry, I've cited the KA site. The 1:1 recommendation is written there word-for-word. It states:

"Can I use active dry and instant yeasts interchangeably?
Yes, they can be substituted for one another 1:1."

So you argument is with those experts, not me. The information is written there in no uncertain terms.

I've also cited my own experience. I could cite additional resources, but it seems it would not matter to you or change your view. That's fine. I provided the information for the person who wrote in and anyone else who might have an interest.

The formula for 1% yeast is in the back of PB. I believe it’s in the chart in the back where baker’s percentage formulas are written, so folks can scale the recipes. The formulation of 1% yeast is designed for the long fermentation process. Again, that’s not something I’m going to argue about. It’s a given. (There are countless formulas for short rise pizza doughs. The percentage of yeast required is much higher in those formulations.)

Lastly, I think we come from two entirely different mind-sets. For the home chef, making at most 10 lbs of dough on some grand occasion, the formulas are guidelines. It’s not going to make or break your dough. I’ve made dough nearly all my life, most of which was without a recipe—by feel, by eye, by smell, by taste. This I learned from my grandma, that she learned from hers, and the tradition must go back centuries. My grandma made apple pie, cheesecake—you name it w/o a recipe—old school. What kind of measuring tools did people have in their kitchens historically—fancy digital scales that can measure a fractions of a gram?! No way! Every illiterate peasant has made dough, pasta, etc., for centuries—in fact invented it—not by reading scientific dissertations by Ph.Ds. (who likely make the worst pizza known to man ;-))

So can we get together at least based on the empirical data I can give you myself as a registered member of the PB community? I use instant yeast for MD at a 1:1 substitution ratio, and do not have, and never have had, an issue with bubbling because of it. As you can see from PB, I make dough a lot!

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Maria .
posted almost 2 years ago


Maria,

I don't have a problem with how you make your doughs or if you follow your family's recipe and what not. If it works for you, more power to you.

My point was that the conversion factor is not simply a 1:1 ratio for ADY & IDY. KA has most likely simplified the procedure for novices or the occasional cookie baker, pastry baker or bread baker. It's actually evident because they use volume measurements instead of Baker's percent, grams and ounces.

Here's a quote from Tom Lehmann, the former Director of the American Institute of Baking:

"To make the switch from ADY to IDY you will need to use only 3/4 (75%) as much IDY as you did ADY. Keep in mind that this is by weight, not volume. So, if you were using 4-ounces of ADY the math would look like this: 4 X 75 (press the "%" key) and read 3. That would be 3-ounces of IDY to replace 4-ounces of ADY. If you want to do it by the books, add 2-ounces of additional water for each ounce of IDY."

Still, I do not see where Mr. Gemignani's 1% ADY yeast value is a given when he clearly states, on Page 19, that...and I quote..."to try to discover pizzas you love, to make them again and again, to tweak and perfect, to add and subtract."

Nowhere in his book does Mr. Gemignani demand that we all stick to the T to his formulas. He encourages the reader to change things up and tailor the dough to his/her environment, the oven used, the refrigeration used, the mixer used, etc. You get my point.

But to stubbornly insist on suggestions from only one website, King Arthur Flour, without even trying to research the subject a little further and to dismiss respected baking experts along the way, will result in limited knowledge, imo, especially if you hand out advice to people on here that have a serious problem with their doughs.

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Mike K.
posted almost 2 years ago


Mike: I’ve provided definitive evidence for the statements I’ve made. If you’d like to argue with, or diminish the expertise of the King Arthur bakers who provide information to the home baker, that is up to you. It is a very reliable source of information, nonetheless. The information is also consistent with my hands-on evidence; I use instant yeast in MD regularly, and I have no problem with bubbling. The yeast manufacturer’s advice is the same: 1:1.

1% is the recommended amount of yeast in Master Dough per the Pizza Bible baker’s percentage charts. MD is what the gentlemen is trying to achieve—his stated goal. The recipe has been formulated for those who don’t have the wherewithal to create dough without one.

In addition, the writer stated that was using .4% yeast in the MD recipe.

I’ve spoken of factual information and of my own empirical evidence—of known and given guidelines for using yeast. Why you choose to argue about, and sidestep, common and concrete information is beyond me.

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Maria .
posted almost 2 years ago


Okay. So I read at the yeast site that ADY is reliable enough nowadays to be mixed in the dry ingredients w/o proofing. What do think? Have you tried it? Would you? Know of anyone doing it?

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Maria .
posted over 1 year ago

Hi Maria,
As I advised to you before, I work for a pizza stone manufacturer which provide OEM products for many customers all over the world. We set up our own brand recently and have a small business in US online selling, we can provides our stone to you for free trial.Please contact me via t970919@163.com if you are interested in our products.Thank you!

- Ted   over 1 year ago


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