NP dough W/starter too soft


I just made two batches of Tony's NP dough with my starter and having problems with the dough being too soft. It tears very easy and will not window pane at all. Love the taste, just need to get it firmer.
My first batch was
Flour 100%
Water 62%
ADY .5%
Salt 2%
Starter 20%
I had plan to bake my Pizzas in 48 hours. After 24 hours in the fridg at 40 degrees, the balls had doubled in size and we're ready for the oven. I left them in the fridge for another 24 hours and cut the temp down to 33 degrees. They tasted good, but the dough was very hard to stretch because it was so soft. I contributed this to over fermentation.
My next batch, I cut the ADY yeast in half to .25%. The dough was so soft, I threw it away..
Any ideas how to increase the gluten so that the dough will stretch without tearing..

Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago

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Ron,

I'm not really an expert on Neapolitan doughs but the two things that stood out to me were that you fermented the individual dough balls for 48 hours.

Now, that gives the gluten too much time and it will relax completely hence the tearing and over-softness. I'd go with a 24 hour bulk ferment and then perhaps only 12 hours individual rise.

The flour is more important, though. Which Caputo 00 did you use? Pizzeria in the blue bag? Or the one in the red bag "Rinforzata" which has a higher protein content?

You could also increase the salt amount a tad and lower the hydration. I'd start with 58% and go from there.

Maybe someone with more experience in NP doughs can chime in.

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Mike K.
posted about 2 years ago


Mike
Thanks for your comments.
I used the "00" in the blue bag. I went to 48 hours because Tony seem to suggest it was better in the book. I opened one of my dough balls in the second batch at 24 hours to see if that made any different. It was way too soft.
Hope I can get this worked out, because I think it will be my dough of choice.

Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago


I've done 48 hour rises with individual balls and Caputo before and haven't had a problem with the tearing.

A few questions/thoughts:

1. Does this mean you made the Neapolitan dough without a starter without issue? You're only having an issue after using the starter?
2. In your next batch, try stretching one ball after 24 hours, then another after 48 hours to see what works.
3. Can you include the exact measurements (in grams) for your recipe instead of bakers percentages? This way we can double check the numbers to make sure the numbers look ok. Also, please include the sub-measurements for the starter.

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Raj Irukulla admin
posted about 2 years ago


This is the first two batches that I have mixed with my starter. The other batches were made with Tony's poolish. They came out good except for one or two small holes in the skin.
I used Tom Lehmans dough Calculator for the grams
Flour. 346.2g
Water. 188.7g
Salt. 8.28g
ADY. 1.04g
Starter. 136.08g
Total. 680.4g

My starter is 50-50 that I use in my SD bread
Thanks
Ron

Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago


Ron,

It sounds like you have two challenges: (1) the dough rising too much and (2) a weak gluten network. On the dough rising too much, I'd try three approaches: make sure the water is really cold, lower the amount of yeast (which you did) and increase the salt (like Mike suggests). On the gluten development, increasing the salt helps (as Mike said); you might also try giving the dough a bench rest for 40 minutes to an hour, and then folding it--you mentioned you bake bread, so you probably do that with your bread. You might also want to knead the dough longer. Finally, balling the dough is a different technique than shaping bread, and if you shape the dough like you shape a boule, rather than balling it as the book describes, the dough will be difficult to open properly.

Good luck!

Adam Sachs
posted about 2 years ago


Ron,

I agree with Adam here.

I still think that your dough is underdeveloped, with a weak gluten matrix or structure, and it simply can't go the distance of 48 hrs individual fermentation.

We were recently up in Petaluma at Central Milling for Baker's Seminar with and Nicky Giusto showed us that almost any flour can be mixed to the point where it delivers decent window-paning, even flours lower in protein such as the Caputo 00.

Like I said, increase the salt amount and perhaps mixing times as well. Keep checking on the dough and feel it. Tear off a small piece and check for window-paning. If it rips easily keep mixing.

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Mike K.
posted about 2 years ago


Great tips Adam! These are very helpful.

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Raj Irukulla admin
posted about 2 years ago

Thanks, Guys
I will make a new batch tomorrow and increase the salt to 2.8% and cut the ADY down to .15%. I will open one ball at 24 hrs.

- Ron   about 2 years ago


I made a new batch today and excited to see the results tomorrow. I increased the salt to 2.8% and cut the yeast to .155%. When I finished mixing it as instructions, the dough was still soft. I mixed it about 4 min more, kneeled it about two min, then Bench rested it ( covered) for about 30 min. I then folded it about 2 more min and then let it set about 30 more min. Before I balled it, I check the window pane. It was great.
My mixing water was 42 degrees and the finished dough was 71 degrees

Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago


Ron,

Sounds like a success. Let's see the outcome tomorrow.

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Mike K.
posted about 2 years ago


Just opened up one of the balls after 24 hrs at 38 degrees and baked in in my brick oven. The dough needed more fermentation, but it was a lot better than the last batch. I still had 2-3 small holes in the dough.
The good thing is, it taste great. Tomorrow, i'm going to do the second ball at 48 hours

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Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago


Great to hear the progress! Two thoughts about the holes in the dough: (1) if you're fermenting the dough in that container shown in the photo, it's probably hard to remove the dough without sacrificing some of its structural integrity (in other words, tearing some of the gluten strands)--I ferment my doughs on a sheet pan, and I think Raj has talked about using a bowl; and (2) the more you open doughs, the more you get the knack of it, and pretty soon the holes will be a thing of the past.

Adam Sachs
posted about 2 years ago


+1 ^

I use the professional dough boxes with a lid. Works like a charm.

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Mike K.
posted about 2 years ago


I am fermenting the dough balls in the container. I've read not to pull the dough out. To let it fall out on its on, but sometime I have to help it a little.
I've tried dough boxes, but the dough runs together on me. I will try it again.
Thanks

Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago


I took the 2 nd dough ball out of the fridge tonight after three days. I left it in the fridge for another day because it looked like it needed more fermentation. I turned the Tupperware cup upside down on the counter to let the dough fall out by itself. I thought the pie was going to be wonderful, because it felt good and window paned good.
Turns out, it was hard to work with because it was too soft and hard to get on the peel without tearing.
It tasted great( but was ugly)
I'm making another batch in the morning and going to run my KA mixer for a full five min.

Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago


Mike
How do you keep the dough balls from running together using dough boxes?
Do you dust the balls with flour when you put them in the box?

Ron W.
posted about 2 years ago


Ron,

I don't usually worry about them running together. It's sometimes inevitable especially when I make up to 6 dough balls at a time. Just use a metal dough scraper and carefully lift them out.

Here's a good video that shows what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeWmShN2fwc

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Mike K.
posted about 2 years ago


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